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29 July 2008 @ 02:32 pm
Brown vs Blue - and why we don't have to choose  
The Doctor loves Rose. We've always known this, even before RTD canonized it. They are the ultimate OTP and we refuse to give them up.

So why, when "Journey's End" aired was there such a division in the comms? Many lovely, empathic fans can't decide whether to be happy for Rose and her Duplicate Doctor, or miserably sad for the original one left all alone in his box. Many, (who don't share my love for AU fic) feel cheated, as if all of their stories and artwork of the original pairing are no longer valid. Well, I respectfully disagree.

At one point there was one Doctor. He was born on Gallifrey. He was rubbish at school, not because he wasn't brilliant, but because he had a restless soul. He lived a life where they couldn't appreciate his compassion and was repeatedly punished for it. Finally, he escaped with his granddaughter in a stolen, broken time ship. He traveled the universe, through time and space. He met wonderful and horrible people, saw amazing and terrible things. He regenerated seven times.

While in his eighth body, he fought a war so horrendous he was permanently damaged. And while the scars on his body disappeared as he changed into his Ninth self, the scars on his soul would never be completely healed.

Then he met a girl. Her name was Rose. She was innocent, brave, brilliant, and eager to see everything he had to show her. She made the universe new for him again. She helped to soothe those deep scars. She made him better. And then he lost her.

He met a bunch of friends after that. Some who helped to ease the loneliness, some who taught him to heal even more, but he never forgot his golden girl.

And then, as the battle he'd thought over waged once again, she came back for him. And as he ran towards her loving arms, an overwhelming joy filled him. He lost sight of the danger surrounding them and was damaged again.

As a side effect of repairing this damage, where once only one Doctor existed, now there were two: Two men who'd lived the same life, lost the same things, and loved the same woman. We now have two lives diverging from a single point in time.

Sure, the second one has a few quirks, and only one heart, but as far as both of them are concerned, they were the same man up until the averted regenerated.

So now that we have two different men, we need to look at this from two different angles.

Brown:
Rose is back. He loves her so much it hurts. He'd already dealt with the fact that she was going to grow old someday and decided he loved her enough to suffer through that. ("you can spend the rest of your life with me, but I can't spend the rest of my life with you.") For a moment, before he knew his duplicate existed, he probably entertained the notion of Rose and Donna traveling traveling with him for years to come. He'd have both his love and his best mate, a family of sorts. But then when all is said and done, there was a version of him who could spend the rest of his life with her. This other man could give her the one thing that he could never give her and everything else that he could too. How could our Doctor, the man in love, the selfless hero, not give her up in that moment. It must have felt like ripping out his own soul, especially since he knew he'd be losing Donna as well, but at least Rose would be with the man she loves, even if it wasn't technically him anymore. And this way, she'd keep her family too, something the Doctor never wanted to take from her.

So he stood there stoically, pretending it didn't hurt like hell, and said the one thing he knew would endear this man in Blue to her, this other him. He told his amazing, compassionate, loving Rose, that this other man needed her. And then, when given the chance to admit how much he loved her himself, deferred that honor to the one who'd get to keep her.

Blue:
As much as the Doctor has always complained about being Domestic, these protestations have always come across as a defensive gesture, such as an abuse victim not wishing to be hugged. He had a family, they died. It hurts to be around domesticity, because it reminds him of what he lost. Despite that, it's clear that he absolutely longs for a life with a family again. We can see this in his ninth self when he wistfully admits to the almost married couple in "Father's Day," that a normal life is a beautiful thing. We see it in his Tenth self as he grows to love Jackie and Mickey and even almost admits to Donna during "The Runnaway Bride" that they were his family too. And then in "the Doctor's daughter," he's almost a father again, before that's also ripped away from him.

So now he can spend his life with Rose. He's only got one now, no more regenerations in the offering, but he'd be living a life, day after day. How could he pass that up? As angry as the Doctor in brown must have made our Duplicate Doctor by calling him a murderer, as soon as Donna prompted him to explain his new biology to Rose, the light bulb must of gone off. He didn't fight being left behind after that, because he knew what an incredible gift he was being given. Remember, a few hours ago he WAS the man in brown. He loves Rose just as much, and he is the only one in existence who understands just how much leaving her behind is hurting the other Doctor.

We can see how much this opportunity means to him as he hesitantly offers it to Rose. "I only have one life, I could spend it with you." And if you believe that the Doctor has a baby TARDIS, well than this life is going to be even more fantastic than we originally thought. And if you don't buy into that, you know he's going to be defending the Earth right alongside his lover. The Doctor and Rose forever, as it should be.

So what are we left with? We have one Doctor who's given everything he's ever dreamed of. He's happy, he's in love, he's got Rose, and he has the potential to be a father again. On the other hand, we have a lonely man in brown, traveling in a box.

So are we happy? Are we sad? Do we rejoice with our favorite couple, or mourn with the lonely god? I say we do both. S1-S4 is about man who've we've all fallen in love with. That same man is now both riding off into the sunset with his lost love and mourning her loss, and the loss of everything else, forever. As fans, we literally get to have our cake and eat it too. It's okay if we are just as divided in our feelings as he has been in body. It's okay to love them both.

We all know Rose does. :)
 
 
Current Mood: pensivepensive
 
 
 
Shaela Scanlonmls03j on July 28th, 2008 07:56 pm (UTC)
Many lovely, empathic fans can’t decide whether to be happy for Rose and her Duplicate Doctor, or miserably sad for the original one left all alone in his box.

Um. That’s not it. At least not for me. I’m sad for Rose. I’m furious with the original Doctor. (Well, him and the writers.) I think the duplicate is dead, but since I just met him, I can’t say I feel much of anything about that.
svanderslicesvanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:00 pm (UTC)
why do you think he's dead?
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - grbggrl on July 28th, 2008 09:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - penguinandbanjo on July 28th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pie_is_good on July 28th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - emlee on July 28th, 2008 08:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mls03j on July 28th, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mls03j on July 28th, 2008 08:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - katesutton on July 28th, 2008 09:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mls03j on July 29th, 2008 02:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - katesutton on July 29th, 2008 02:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 29th, 2008 02:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mls03j on July 29th, 2008 02:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 29th, 2008 02:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mls03j on July 29th, 2008 03:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 29th, 2008 03:27 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 28th, 2008 10:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on July 28th, 2008 11:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 29th, 2008 01:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - haro on July 28th, 2008 08:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - emlee on July 28th, 2008 09:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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(no subject) - doyle_sb4 on July 29th, 2008 12:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
nattieb: Ten and Rose- SEnattieb on July 28th, 2008 08:03 pm (UTC)
Cheers. Thank you. This is what I have been trying to get people to understand.

I feel bad on some level for all three of them, but Rose and blue!Doctor have each other and they will be happy. You know they will. I do feel bad that Rose didnt get to say goodbye to Brown!Doctor. When it comes down to it I love them both and it worked out the best way it could. Rather this then the Doctor loosing Rose again.

Really my sadness is for what happened to Donna, but that is a whole other story.
svanderslice: DW - Donna angel/devilsvanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:08 pm (UTC)
I think it's sad that Rose didn't get to say goodbye to Brown!Doctor, but I think that's how he wanted it. First, watching her kiss Blue!Doctor must have seriously stung something awful, and secondly, a long emotional goodbye would have just confused her further.

As for Donna, I agree. *sob!* But you're right. That is a different story.
(no subject) - nattieb on July 28th, 2008 08:09 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - electrictoes on July 28th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nattieb on July 28th, 2008 08:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Marinepenguinandbanjo on July 28th, 2008 08:08 pm (UTC)
thank you so very much !!

You've nicely summerized my feelings on the matter !!
I love them both !!

svanderslicesvanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
Thanks. I do too.
Sarah: Doctor Who - Nine/Rosepie_is_good on July 28th, 2008 08:09 pm (UTC)
svanderslicesvanderslice on July 28th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
Cheers!
(no subject) - arabian on July 28th, 2008 11:45 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pie_is_good on July 28th, 2008 11:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on July 29th, 2008 12:19 am (UTC) (Expand)
Emlee: 10Rose S4emlee on July 28th, 2008 08:14 pm (UTC)
WORD TO THIS ENTIRE POST.

People say Rose doesn't have her Doctor. Yes she does. He has the same memories, the same feelings, the same thoughts. THAT is what makes a person, not your biology and this man in blue is the Doctor.

He has new quirks, but how is that different from 9 to 10? The change there is far more dramatic than 10 with a few human and Donna traits. He is not a clone, he is the Doctor.

Really, it's no different to Jackie and alt!Pete. They've shown it can be done, and 10.5 and Rose will be happy eventually. I'm sure they'll have difficulties at the beginning, just like Rose with accepting 10 at first, but they'll be happy.

Now the man in brown? I'm sad for him atm for what he's lost, but this is a man who will, definately, find new people. More friends and more people to love, I am sure. He can, and will be happy again. :)

I AM, HOWEVER, really annoyed 10 didn't say goodbye to Rose. I know he just left because he just saw someone just like him kissing Rose, but he still could've said goodbye and put Rose's mind to rest a bit more @_@
Arabian: Dr Whoarabian on July 28th, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC)
He has new quirks, but how is that different from 9 to 10? The change there is far more dramatic than 10 with a few human and Donna traits. He is not a clone, he is the Doctor.

Hah, I'm reading this backwards (and totally hijacking your thread, svanderslice, I hope you don't mind, but it's SUCH a fabulous post and accompanying replies that I so agree with, I feel like I'm home!) and I totally said a similar thing in a few responses below.

As I see it, she loved Nine first, and then as time passed she grew to love him more, but not as Ten. So it's the same guy, same memories, same personality, same underneath it all, so of course, she's going to love him too. If you can get past that she loved Ten as well as Nine, then why can't one get past that she can easily love TenII as well as Ten and Nine. At least this time she doesn't have to get over a completely different form, and personality quirks.
(no subject) - emlee on July 29th, 2008 07:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 29th, 2008 01:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
Ree: DW - 2x07 reetinkerbell on July 28th, 2008 08:27 pm (UTC)
I agree with this. I'm sad for Blue, but I think that while he still misses Rose a lot, he's not as sad as he was before she came back. If that makes any sense.


And it's a bit like loving both Nine and Ten (or any of the previous eight Doctors) -- only made sad by the fact that there's now two men and one of them is alone.
Arabian: Dr Who (Rose/10/9)arabian on July 28th, 2008 11:40 pm (UTC)
And it's a bit like loving both Nine and Ten (or any of the previous eight Doctors) -- only made sad by the fact that there's now two men and one of them is alone.

I so agree with this. And it's one of the reasons I don't get why so many can't buy that Rose could/would love TenII as much as Ten. As I see it, she loved Nine first, and then as time passed she grew to love him more, but not as Ten. So it's the same guy, same memories, same personality, same underneath it all, so of course, she's going to love him too. If you can get past that she loved Ten as well as Nine, then why can't one get past that she can easily love TenII as well as Ten and Nine. At least this time she doesn't have to get over a completely different form, and personality quirks. (Donna's rudeness doesn't really count as Ten has long been established as being quite rude himself, LOL!)
(no subject) - reetinkerbell on July 29th, 2008 09:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Scar: DW: Ten2/Rose - I took your handaccioscar on July 28th, 2008 08:56 pm (UTC)
YES!! THANK YOU!

The ending was better than anything we could've REALISTICALLY hoped for.

Sure, I would've loved it if Ten, Rose and Donna had all flown off into the sunset together sans blue!Ten. But I knew it would NEVER happen. Billie was never going to come back full-time and Catherine was always only going to do one series.

So to have our 'ideal world' happily-ever-after the show would've had to finish forever. DO. NOT. WANT.

And we could've had it SO much worse (I was terrified Rose was REALLY going to die this time.)

I feel sad for brown!Doctor, but I also feel ECSTATIC for Rose.

I also feel sad because Rose is gone forever (we all know Moffatt will never bring her back) because I LOVE ROSE!

Then there's Donna (but that's a whole different story). I was squeeing and crying all at once whilst watching 'Journey's End'. My emotions were all over the place (and still are). In a way I feel happy AND sad for all 4 characters (Rose, blue!Ten, Donna & brown!Ten).

But, ultimately, I was MORE than satisfied with the conclusion.

As far as fics go, I'm loving all the blue!Ten/Rose fics but I'm equally excited about the so-called 'denial fics' with Donna, Ten & Rose all travelling together.

I literally get to have my cake and eat it too!!!
Arabian: Rose_smilearabian on July 28th, 2008 11:36 pm (UTC)
Lamest reply ever ... but YES! YES! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To every word.
(no subject) - blackcat_1 on July 29th, 2008 12:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Flying Mint Bunnyharo on July 28th, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC)
Great post. The ending was bittersweet in the truest sense of the word and I am definitely okay with that. In a series like this, it is the best we're going to get. I am so upset for the original Doctor, but to know that somewhere out there is a Doctor and Rose spending their lives together and having loads of adventures, is a brilliant thing.

And honestly I think that knowing that will help Brown Doctor cope as well, even if the fact that it's not him hurts.
svanderslicesvanderslice on July 28th, 2008 10:23 pm (UTC)
I think that knowing that will help Brown Doctor cope as well, even if the fact that it's not him hurts.

Agreed. Somewhere out there Rose and the Doctor are growing old together and going on crazy adventures while they're at it. I'm sure that thought will get Brown!Doctor through some long cold nights.
Vincelia Valentinevinceliav on July 28th, 2008 09:33 pm (UTC)
Young lady what are you doing posting ridiculously crazy posts(you know I love you :P) instead of writing Return to me, seeing as you looove AU's so much lol Get to work! You no longer have any excuse to not write it! *cracks whip*
svanderslicesvanderslice on July 28th, 2008 10:21 pm (UTC)
I wrote it because I was inspired to and I don't think it's crazy, geeky to the extreme, but not crazy.

As for Return to me, I haven't written a word for it in a while. Sorry. I'll get to it eventually.

ETA: I have it up on my computer screen at all times though. I keep hoping I'll get inspired to write some more of it.

Edited at 2008-07-28 10:31 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - vinceliav on July 29th, 2008 06:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - One Heartarabian on July 28th, 2008 11:35 pm (UTC)
It's so nice to see that I'm not the only one who truly feels this way. Who truly sees that they are the same man -- I'm offended when people claim that those who do are clinging to some notion to have their happy-ever-after -- who diverged.

The one thing that I would say that I don't agree with is something that I only thought of after watching 'Music of the Spheres."

On the other hand, we have a lonely man in brown, traveling in a box.

We saw a contentedly happy Doctor in this little mini ep and it was lovely. Also, it gave me a happier ending to the Ten we saw at the end of JE because for me I'm just going to take that as proof that despite how selfish he can be, he can also be incredibly selfless (as you mentioned) and that he DID mean that knowing Rose is truly happy with another him, he can now be content himself because he gave her an undreamed of happy ending with him. (And, yes, he would believe it fully because he's rather an arrogant one and I don't think he could possibly conceive of Rose NOT being happy with someone who looks like him, talks like him, basically is him.)

I loved this post, and hope you don't mind, but I'd love to friend you. It's rare to find someone who sees the ending of JE as I did as alike as we do (well, at least the Rose/Doctor part, I don't know if you'd agree with my take on how perfect the Donna ending was too taking in all of the logistics -- I wrote a whole post up on it).
fishface44fishface44 on July 29th, 2008 01:18 am (UTC)
Oh I like your comment a lot! I loved the cheerful fun Doctor of MotS! DT was adorable in the mini-ep. As much as I love my D/R ship, I would really enjoy a bit more of this happy view of the Doctor!

And I completely agree that since he can at last believe that Rose is happy with her Doctor instead of just thinking of her trapped and miserable in the AU that he too can sigh a little now & then but overall can be at peace about her. Maybe he wont be deliriously happy and in love (I am still having some unresolved issues about River Song, since I really do not see any chemistry btwn the characters), but enjoying his life and having fun anyway.
(no subject) - arabian on July 29th, 2008 02:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fey_spirit on July 30th, 2008 06:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 30th, 2008 10:02 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - svanderslice on July 29th, 2008 01:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on July 29th, 2008 02:29 am (UTC) (Expand)
ophelia_winters: nine lolz tenophelia_winters on July 28th, 2008 11:45 pm (UTC)
It's posts like this that make me proud to be a fangirl.
I agree with everything you've said. I've supported Blue as being a good thing all the way back when I dd my own review/picspam
http://ophelia-winters.livejournal.com/10010.html#cutid1
But now I feel like I missed some of the finer points. And I'm glad you've written this. Best musing I've read on the two Doctors since JE aired.
unfolded73: 4x13 kiss b&wunfolded73 on July 29th, 2008 12:10 am (UTC)
Wow, I don't think I've ever been brought to tears reading meta before. That was beautifully written, and I agree with absolutely everything you said. There is no reason we can't be sad for Ten I while at the same time happy for Rose/Ten II. I'm sure Rose and Ten II feel the same way.

Also, I would add that I think Ten I, because he's gotten true closure, because he can now know that Rose can be happy, I think he can now move on. He'll mourn her for a while, sure, but I have a feeling that the next time we see the Doctor it will not be the broken man from S3. It will be a man who remembers Rose wistfully. A part of him will always love her, but I don't think he will be grieving her loss the way he did before.

fishface44fishface44 on July 29th, 2008 01:08 am (UTC)
It is great that in spite of any divisions it may have caused in the fandom that JE seems to have rejuvenated the world of fanfic. Lots of lovely things have been written in the aftermath.

I tend to agree with those who have said that RTD tried his best to preserve his own OTP of the Doctor and Rose. The show has to go on; Catherine Tate and Billie Piper have careers elsewhere; but in the AU the D/R romance is forever.

Of course, I also ship Peter Carlisle (both versions)/Rose, AU!Nine/Rose, and Five/Tegan, so I can't really claim to have OTP anyway...
The Cee Monstersagacious_c on July 29th, 2008 01:49 am (UTC)
I agree; we mourn and celebrate. It was a confusing, weird situation unlike anything else anyone could relate to... except for Rose, since she'd already been through a regeneration with the Doctor and this was less difference than that...

I think the hardest part for me was that we didn't get to see that much of the Blue Doctor in the episode, and especially at the end he was kind of quiet and not as Doctorish... That's why I need fic to help show that he really is the same person -- I need to see that demonstrated to believe it.
svanderslicesvanderslice on July 29th, 2008 01:56 am (UTC)
he was kind of quiet and not as Doctorish...

As manic and ADD as the Doctor can be at times, he can also be quite closed off. He has his quiet moments just like everyone else, and I think our Blue Ten was just prudently keeping his mouth shut for a second, letting his double explain things.

But I think if you watch closely during the happy family flying the TARDIS scene, he's just as loving and as puppyish with his friends and with Rose. And at the end when he interacts with Jackie he makes the same goofy grin. He's the Doctor. No worries here.
Usaku (aka Leliel): Geek.usaku on July 29th, 2008 03:27 am (UTC)
This is a great post. Why is it a great post? Because it is thoughtful, considerate and it makes sense! It's an olive branch!

I was really, really upset after I first saw the finale. I hurt so much for Ten. It's like, yeah, Rose got a happy ending, she got a Doctor.. but he's not *the* Doctor, in that our Doctor is sad, soggy and alone! A second run-through helped. Reading Ten II/Rose fics and writing for Brown!Ten helped even more. A third time through, I'm still so very sad for Ten. But, knowing that he at least has peace of mind that he gave Rose the most he felt he could ever give.. (I don't necessarily agree with him, but I feel that the Doctor thinks he is a certain way and limits himself by that.) and that Rose/Ten II just might have a TARDIS to live their old life together.. it helps. I'm still concerned about how Rose would get over knowing Ten I is out there alone, and left her so harshly after everything, but I like to think Ten II would help her understand his feelings. he is the same man, afterall.

But ultimately, you are right, we don't have to choose because both scenarios exist! I would be lying if my favor didn't ultimately tilt in the direction of Ten just a little more, but that's because he's the one we had to see make such horrific decisions, the one we will see continue to grow (I hope), and the one that I feel most sad for. But I wouldn't negate the existence of Ten II, ever. I'll enjoy them both because that is what we were given. Rose only got one.. but we have two to play with! Hehehehe.. XD